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Is Podcast Listening Too Big Of An Ask?

Given what we know about how people use the internet, it’s surprising podcasting works at all. Or perhaps explains why, for many struggling shows, it doesn’t. Today, it’s about trust, timely data, or infotainment.

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Yes, this article is about podcasting. But I need to start off with an air fryer metaphor. You see, I really didn’t know anything about cooking with an air fryer. Luckily, the fryer came with a big book of 100 air fryer-specific recipes for all sorts of dishes. That book was my trusted source for recipes. 

But I quickly realized that only a small portion of those 100 recipes were something we’d enjoy at ShEvo Studios. It doesn’t matter how easy making or tasty eating Sweet Potato Toast may be: It’s not something either of us wants in our mouths. So I did what anybody else from the 21st century would do and I started searching the internet.

If my first search was for generic “air fryer recipes”, I can promise you my second one was not. I already had a trusted source of information in the cookbook. I wasn’t looking to add to the number of recipes I could choose from. At that moment, I was seeking out something specific to fill my immediate needs. And belly. Like “air fryer kumquat recipes” or something equally as bizarre but would give me exactly what I wanted at that time.

During my search, I stumbled across various YouTube channels hosted by air fryer aficionados who demonstrate how to cook a great multitude of dishes, from the mundane to the downright strange, with an air fryer. Some even went so far as to create a series of videos that would show you how to make an entire Thanksgiving feast using an air fryer, each playing right after the other.

I Assure You This Article Is About Podcasting

The journey I described above is how we humans have trained ourselves to use the internet. This is how we humans discover digital content, decide what digital content we will consume, and filter out the vast majority of content that doesn’t fit our wants and desires.

Potential podcast listeners are humans responding to that same informal training we’ve all put ourselves through. And it could shine a light on one of the weaknesses of podcasting compared to other forms of digital content. 

Though you could slice it many ways, humans tend to seek out digital content in one (or more) of three ways:

1. Trust A Trusted Source

People are happy to let others do the sorting for them, so long as those doing the sorting are trustworthy. People subscribe to New York Times, either the paper or some of the podcasts they produce, because they trust the editorial team to produce content that fits their own world view and are happy to leave discovery in trusted and capable hands. Others feel the same way about a well-credentialed journalist with a reputation of uncovering news that hits their dopamine centers. Or they listen to a comedian who makes fun of the things that the listener would like to make fun of if only they were as funny as the pro.

In all of these cases and those like it, the listener relegates their agency to the person, the company, or the organization because they are a trusted source. The audience trusts that every day, week, month, or whatever the frequency, quality content will be delivered. This trust gives the provider a lot of latitude. A trusting audience is often a forgiving audience.

Many podcasts (like mine) clearly are trying to be seen as a trusted source. We generate content not because someone specifically asked for it. Our listeners (and readers) trust us to generate the content they need to hear. Even if they don’t know it. (Goodness, that sounds pretentious, doesn’t it?)

2. Timely Data

Even though we’re subscribed to our trusted sources, we often have immediate needs. While some might assume our trusted sources will eventually get to the topic we’ve been hearing and are curious about, we all have search engines at our fingertips. 

And the search engines themselves realize this is why we use search engines. The next time you search for something very specific (which is most searches, by the way), you’ll probably see a knowledge box in the upper right hand corner. That’s the search engine trying to get you the information you need as quickly as possible. Google is even trying this with podcast episodes, adding relevant podcast episodes to the listing of search results.

But living in this space is problematic for podcasts, especially if the nugget of information someone is looking for is buried deep inside a 45-minute episode. 

This disconnect isn’t unique to podcasts. Videos have the same problem. When I was trying to solve a very specific problem with my webcam yesterday, Google served up a 14-minute video for me as the best result.

I assure you it was not the best result.

It’s been 15 years since Google acquired YouTube, yet I still have to sit through a 14-minute rambling video because they still don’t know if it actually provides the info I need? You understand why I’m a little bearish on their plans to improve podcast discovery.

And I’m equally bearish on podcasters ability to ever properly capitalize on the delivery of timely data without also being a trusted source. That’s a problem.

3. Infotainment

Not all searches are for timely data. Some knowledge requires more than a glancing exposure, and a lot of it needs a full-on deep-dive. And most of all, we humans love a good story. Properly presented, informative deep-dives can be quite entertaining. And those of us seeking out infotainment need not necessarily have a lot of pre-established trust with the presenter.

This is where podcasting can (and often does) shine, especially when it’s presented as a series of well-crafted episodes. If we make the story compelling, we can hook people into listening to a dozen episodes. We can’t waste their time, obviously. And we probably shouldn’t make just one 4.5-hour-long episode. But if we are able to make compelling content that informs and entertains, that content will find the audience it deserves.

Where Does Your Podcast Fit? 

Developing trust is easy if you already have a big following elsewhere, or are well-respected in another medium, or happen to be a celebrity. But for the rest of us without a big name or a big organization behind us, asking people to listen to or subscribe to our podcast is a very big ask. Especially if our potential listener/subscriber already has a source they already trust to deliver information like we produce.

Producing timely data requires a great deal of effort for podcasters trying to stay in-step with the news cycle. If you say “timely data inside!” and then bury it in a super-long episode, you’re going to disappoint some of your existing listeners and turn away potential listeners. Because if you force someone to slog through your non-sequiturs or meanders before you deliver the goods 45 minutes later, then listening to your podcast is too big of an ask for someone who's looking for something very specific. (This is a hard need to meet in a podcast form. But it's doable. Some podcasts are exploring microformats and other ways to reduce the size of the ask. It’s a work in progress.)

Figuring out a multi-episode, seasonal arc that digs deep, with compelling storytelling at every turn until the story is fully told is really, really hard. But some creators are great at it, taking a dozen or more episodes to inform and entertain. Can you find a worthy story and make it interesting enough to keep someone listening to a dozen episodes? Because if the story isn’t that compelling, or if you cannot pull off great storytelling with every episode, then it's too big of an ask to get people to sit through all of it.

Viewing Your Podcast In The Mirror

Think about the kind of content you produce. Or the content you want to produce. Or the content you think you’re producing. Now think about which of the three scenarios above you’re trying to work toward with your content with one question in mind:

How big is your ask?


Once again, I’m leaving you with more questions. But that’s kind of what I do on Podcast Pontifications. Hopefully, my thinking through things helps you think through them as well.

I would love it if you would send someone in your podcasting circle a link to this episode. It’s often a good idea to get other opinions as you think through where you podcast fits, so send this to them as primer so they can help make your own slice of podcasting better.

And if you're happy that Season Three is back on and that you see me and this show as a trusted source, I'd be very appreciative if you went to BuyMeACoffee.com/EvoTerra and signed up for a small, monthly contribution. It's a little bitty, tiny amount of cash for you, and it makes me feel nice and warm inside knowing you love it enough to support it.

I shall be back tomorrow with yet another Podcast Pontifications. 

Cheers!


Published On:
July 7, 2020
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S3E2 Is Podcast Listening Too Big Of An Ask? Transcript

Evo Terra: [00:00:00] Given what we know about how people use the internet. It's surprising podcasting works at all, or perhaps explains why for many struggling shows

[00:00:10] Music: [00:00:10] it doesn't

[00:00:11] Evo Terra: [00:00:11] today. It's about trust, timely data or infotainment.

[00:00:20] Hello, and welcome to another podcast. Pontifications with me, Evo Tara. So I got an air fryer recently. Yes. Yes. This episode is about podcasting. I just need to start off with a metaphor. Give me a break that air fryers. Very cool. But I really don't know what I'm doing when it comes to an air fryer. So I did what anybody else would do.

[00:00:41] I started looking for information and I started looking for recipes and other sorts of things, and maybe even people to follow. Who can help me as I become a massive air fryer cook. And there's a parallel with all of this into podcasting. You see? Because when I got the AirFryer, I opened up the book that came with it that had 100 recipes and that was pretty much my trusted source that was in here.

[00:01:11] It was obviously something good, right. And a hundred embassy recipes. That's that's not

[00:01:15] Music: [00:01:15] bad place to start.

[00:01:17] Evo Terra: [00:01:17] But then I quickly found myself outgrowing those hundred recipes because surprise, not everything is something that I really wanted. So I did what anybody else would do. And I turned to the internet and I started searching.

[00:01:29] And if my first search was for AirFryer recipes, I can promise you my second one was not why? Because, well, that gives too much. That's the same problem I had before. I already have a trusted source with information. What I'm looking for now is something more specific to my needs. So I'm going to search for air fryer, kumquat recipes or something equally as bizarre.

[00:01:52] And then the last thing I can do with our air fryer is I've found various YouTube channels where people will show you how to cook various dishes. Interesting, weird things. Inside of that. And if we're using the AirFryer and they will do it over the course of multiple episodes of their show, every time I tune into something weird and wonderful I'm being, I'm being

[00:02:10] Music: [00:02:10] entertained.

[00:02:11] Evo Terra: [00:02:11] Now, as I mentioned, this is about podcasting, not about air fryers. And I think that it speaks to the way the internet works, the way we humans have learned and trained ourselves to use the internet. It kind of shows one of the weaknesses, if you will, for podcasting. And that is because people really have three go to things they're looking for

[00:02:36] Music: [00:02:36] with digital content

[00:02:38] Evo Terra: [00:02:38] of which podcasting

[00:02:39] Music: [00:02:39] is.

[00:02:41] Evo Terra: [00:02:41] People want content because it's from a source that they trust a trusted source, the New York times, some amazing journalists covering really, really great things. Or a comedian who happens to have funny things. You trust that person's audience trusts. That company's audience trusts that every day, every week, every other week, every month, content will be delivered to them that they are likely going to enjoy.

[00:03:09] That's. Number one. Number two is the timely data. The very specific searches people are doing to find out one bit of one nugget of truth, one nugget of

[00:03:19] Music: [00:03:19] something.

[00:03:21] Evo Terra: [00:03:21] One, one question that is unanswered that they are looking for. I turned to the internet for that. They turned to a search engine for that specifically.

[00:03:28] And even the search engines have capitalized on that now. A lot of the times when you search something on Google, you'll see a knowledge box in the upper right hand corner. As Google just tries to get you to the information quicker, same thing. People are searching the internet for something quick. They want timely bits of data for

[00:03:45] Music: [00:03:45] a podcast, which Google is now getting into.

[00:03:48] As you all know, with

[00:03:49] Evo Terra: [00:03:49] Google podcasts, they're trying to have that discovery of timely data right there in the search engine. So have podcasting search results come up. For podcasts come up in the search engine results.

[00:04:01] Music: [00:04:01] I should say.

[00:04:03] Evo Terra: [00:04:03] Now that's a little harder for us as podcasters, especially those who are making content that they're pushing out every day, every week.

[00:04:10] That's not necessarily what somebody is asking for, but because something that you want to deliver, that's backup in the trust area and the timely data, somebody searching for something very specific and they want to get information well. That's problematic for a podcast, especially if the nugget of information someone is looking for is buried deep inside a 45 minute podcast.

[00:04:34] It's not helping that person with timely data. It's not helping them answer their question. Videos have the same problem. I was watching a video the other day on how to get my silly video camera set up working with streaming once again, and I had to sit through, or actually I didn't sit through a 14 minute long video to answer a simple question.

[00:04:53] It's not, that's not a great fit for that. And I didn't know the person that I was watching the video for. So I didn't really trust that they had the right information. So I kept searching. I kept searching her and I think a lot of people keep searching around today. And the final one of those I've mentioned earlier is.

[00:05:12] Infotainment, right. That's the time when somebody is wanting to be entertained, maybe I don't necessarily know enough about the person to trust that everything that they give me is what I want. I'm not looking for timely data, but I do want to be either educated or informed or entertained or all those things shoved them together, infotainment over a certain series over a spread of time.

[00:05:34] Right. There's something I want to know about. There's something I want to listen and learn about the something, a story that is really, really compelling is told over several different

[00:05:44] Music: [00:05:44] episodes,

[00:05:46] Evo Terra: [00:05:46] several different installments mini series, like that works in the podcasting world, but how we will go about finding that is different than how they go about finding timely data and how they find someone that they can trust.

[00:06:04] So really when we think about this from our point of view, as a podcaster, we need to figure out, well, maybe we don't need to figure that out. Maybe we need to understand where we think we fit the best.

[00:06:18] Music: [00:06:18] Maybe is the best way to say that

[00:06:21] Evo Terra: [00:06:21] it's hard to be an individual without a big following. Who's not a celebrity.

[00:06:28] And to develop that trust.

[00:06:31] Music: [00:06:31] So if

[00:06:31] Evo Terra: [00:06:31] people don't trust us, don't know who we are. Don't know the company don't know the service behind us, asking them to listen to a podcast and getting to subscribe to a podcast is awfully way too big of an ask. They're going to instead go to the service, go to the company, go to the person I already trust to deliver that information.

[00:06:54] Of course trust is something that you can build up over time.

[00:06:58] Music: [00:06:58] But if you're

[00:06:58] Evo Terra: [00:06:58] not that big celebrity, it's hard to ask. It's a really big ask. People can't really know you enough to trust you about that. If you're timely, data is buried inside of the super long episode, then podcast listening is too big of an ask for someone who's looking for something very individual and succinct.

[00:07:18] It's hard to do in a podcast form. It's doable. Some podcasts that are exploring more than micro formats. We're learning about that.

[00:07:26] Music: [00:07:26] That's doable

[00:07:27] Evo Terra: [00:07:27] making it less of a big ask

[00:07:29] Music: [00:07:29] for someone to listen.

[00:07:31] Evo Terra: [00:07:31] And then of course, infotainment that education, that entertainment, that knowledge bigger. You're trying to build over the course of several episodes.

[00:07:40] That's a really big ass because now you're committing, you're asking someone to commit to listening to something for three, five, seven, 17 different episodes over time. Are you able to weave a story together and continue the narrative and make it so compelling that people want to keep listening? I mean, even to something as goofy about a hit song from the eighties, that thee is rumored to be written by the CIA.

[00:08:03] That's an interesting story. Is it interesting enough to get someone to keep listening over time? Because if it's not, then it's too big of an ask to sit with all of that. Think about the kind of content you produce and find out. Ask yourself is what you're asking people to do. Listen to your show, too.

[00:08:24] Big of an ask. Are you helping them? Helping them understand that it's not that big of an ask. Now this show was designed to be questioning no real answers given. That's what I do here on podcast. Pontifications oftentimes as I think through some things and hopefully you're thinking through them as well.

[00:08:41] I would love it. If you would take this episode and send an email. To someone in your podcasting circle today with a link to this episode, send it to them and say, well, what do you think about this? It helps to get exposure for my show. And also it gets people talking, which is really what I want to do because as we talk, we can ultimately make podcasting better.

[00:09:00] And if you're happy that season three is back in, I am back bringing you this into you and you trust me. It'd be great. If you went to buy me a coffee.com/evo Terra and signed up for like a monthly donation, it's a little bitty, tiny amount of cash for you, and it keeps the show going. It makes me feel nice and warm inside and plus, Hey, money's always good.

[00:09:21] All right, that's it. I shall be back tomorrow with yet another podcast. Pontifications cheers.

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