Fighting Against The Hateful Side Of Podcasting

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It is possible to hold two seemingly incongruent thoughts in your head at the same time. For example, most reasonable people would agree that hate speech is bad. But most reasonable people would also agree that censorship is bad.

You can call what I’m about to say whatever you like: being woke, P.C., social justice, cancel culture. I get it. And at the same time, I don’t care. I call it taking some responsibility for the litter scattered around our podcasting playground and making the decision to be a part of the cleanup process.

When Is A Dilemma Not Really A Dilemma?

I've talked about ethical dilemmas faced by podcasters and podcast listeners before. I’ve covered Alex Jones as a cautionary tale for podcasters. But when it comes to hate speech, I’m not really interested in the “how do we identify what is truly hate speech” discussions. Anyone entering that argument with a dictionary in hand is just a dick trying to hide behind words.

Words that were designed to incite violence or continued disparagement against people who, through genetics, through geography or just because are seen as “other”.

And that’s bullshit.

This isn’t a free speech issue. I’m a big fan of free speech. In the United States of America and many, many other countries, we have the right to free speech. But that right extends only to governmental restrictions on our free speech. Uncle Sam can’t stop someone from saying hateful shit. But individuals and corporations can show that same asshole the door.

Addressing Hate Speech In Podcasting At The Source

I have an idea on how we can start to make a dent in the problem unique to podcasting. It's not going to make the lawyers that work at or for podcast hosting companies very happy. And no, it’s not a panacea. But it’s a powerful, simple idea that will make a major impact. If they -- and we -- are brave enough to follow through.

The concept isn’t difficult to grasp. And, frankly, not all that controversial to anyone without “Esq.” on their business card.

Podcast hosting companies need to state -- loudly and succinctly -- that they will not stand for hate speech on their platforms.

That’s it.

One bold statement, linked to prominently from their home page ideally, and certainly not buried in a 20-page TOS agreement. One statement made by each podcast hosting company that simply says hate has no home on their platform.

But What About...

If your mind immediately went to the fuzzy edges and grey areas inherent in such a simple statement: I get it. Honestly, mine goes there as well. But then I remember that I’m not a lawyer. Assuming you are also not an attorney, you and I should leave this to attorneys to figure out. You and I should apply pressure on those attorneys (and the companies they serve) to find a way to make it happen.

Because the question of “Do we want to support hate speech on our platform?” really has only one reasonable answer.

Keeping Hate Speech On The Run

Purveyors of hate speech know what they’re peddling and are always on the lookout for places that seem welcoming to their hate. So when a podcast hosting company makes a clear and concise statement, the purveyors of hate will likely move on, hopefully occupying smaller and smaller portions of the internet.

What can working podcasters like you and me who do not put out hate-filled commentary on our shows do to help? Are we supposed to police our hosting companies, checking every new show listed to make sure they’re squeaky clean?

Probably not. Though I’m sure some more activist-minded podcasters certainly will. My hats off to them.

But we can -- and should -- report hate content to the hosting companies when we find it. It’s not hard to figure out which hosting company serves the media file. So we can make a complaint directly to the hosting source.

What happens if (when) the hosting company fails to respond to our complaint? Or what happens if (when) the hosting company hides behind a legal shield, refusing to take action? What will you do if (when) a podcast media hosting company chooses not to remove content from their servers that any reasonable, rational person would say is hate speech?

Well… we can show that hosting company the door ourselves.

It’s really, really easy to move podcast hosting platforms. Such is the nature of a commoditized business. I’ve moved media hosting companies on behalf of clients as well as on my own stuff, and I can assure you that it's a snap. So if your hosting company refuses to takes stand, tell them you’re moving on to a hosting company that does, and that you’ll no longer subsidize their support of hate speech with your money.

But let’s also be realistic. Their lost revenue of $5 or $10 a month isn’t much incentive to change. But it can be if that happens en masse. It’d be a real shame if a hosting company’s refusal to take action against hate were made public, wouldn’t it?

No, actually. No shame in that at all.

I assure you I’m not taking vague aim at any one hosting platform. This is a systemic problem that every podcasting hosting company needs to address. Chances are, every single podcast hosting company is unknowingly hosting hate speech on their platform. So every podcast hosting company needs to take action.

Careful Of That Slippery Slope

We could fall way down the rabbit hole (or get lost on a rabbit trail, as those two idioms confuse me constantly) on this, as I’m sure some will. Should podcast directories make a similar statement? What about podcast listening apps? Podcast production companies? Should we take the same “get rid of it or I’m out!” position all the way up and down the podcast supply chain?

I don’t know. Maybe? Probably? Worthy discussions, I’m sure.

But right now, we need to crawl up to the top of the slope and strongly encourage our podcast media hosting companies to take a stand against hate. And that’s not a stance any reasonable, rational person should be afraid of taking.

(Except, maybe, for lawyers. But that’s their problem. And job, as a matter of fact.)

Don’t forget to buy me a virtual coffee to show you support at BuyMeACoffee.com/EvoTerra. Also, please tell one person about the show today. Yes, I know you told one person about Podcast Pontifications yesterday. Today, I need you to tell somebody else. Either about the entire show or about this particular episode. It’s up to you.

There will be no episode tomorrow, as I’ve some personal activities to attend to tomorrow morning. And I don’t record on Friday, so you’ve got a long weekend without me in your ears.

I shall be back on Monday with yet another Podcast Pontifications.

Cheers!

Published On:

July 22, 2020

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PPS3E11 Fighting Against The Hateful Side Of Podcasting - Transcript

Evo Terra: [00:00:00] No one is shocked that hate speech exists in podcasting, removing it, however is quite a difficult task, but it doesn't have to be if we're brave enough to make some tough choices when we find it.

[00:00:18] Hello and welcome to another podcast. Pontifications with me, Evo, Tara. It is possible to hold two, seemingly in Hungary was thoughts in your head at the same time. For example, most reasonable people would agree that hate speech is bad, but also most reasonable people agree. Censorship is bad. The dilemma begins.

[00:00:49] Now you can call it whatever you like being woke, being PC, social justice, being a part of the cancel culture. I get it. I get it at the same time. I wonder if it's, maybe we're just finally taking some responses, ability for the litter that exists around it and cleaning it up. I'm specifically talking about hate speech and podcasting specifically, you said specifically twice, we know it's there.

[00:01:26] What are you gonna do about it? What are you trying to do about it? Say a sticky wicket as it has been called before, but I don't agree with that statement to be really honest. Look, I've talked about ethical dilemmas. Of podcasting before talked about how we want to make sure that the, what happened to Alex Jones, his de platforming doesn't happen to podcasters who were not Alex Jones is obviously so, but I think it's time to make a pretty clear statement and ask a question view, but what do we do when we encounter.

[00:02:07] Hate speech. I'm not really interested in the discussion around, well, how do we identify what is truly hate speech and what isn't really hate speech. That's an interesting philosophical argument for people to have, but again, I'm not interested in, in definitions. That's a quick way to avoid the conversation.

[00:02:28] It's a quick way to hide behind words. When you're trying to fight against other words that are clearly going against the clearly trying to incite violence or trying to somehow disparage and demean people who by no fault of their own, through genetics, through geography or other situations, or the way that they are when other people get on and say hateful things about that causes an issue.

[00:03:00] Let's have the conversation about free speech because it's worth having big fan of free speech. Do like that. One of the great things about being an American, we have free speech and free speech laws exist in lots of other countries as well. But remember this free speech means what the government can't tell you what you can.

[00:03:18] And can't say, as I'm going to do with me, you businesses specifically, and how we deal. With people exercising their right to free speech. We also have rights to show you to the door as a specific matter of fact. So when we encounter hateful things in podcasting, what do we do? We're podcasters. We want to tidy the place up.

[00:03:48] What are we supposed to do? Well, I have an idea. And it's not going to make the hosting companies, lawyers very happy. But my idea is that podcast hosting companies, the people responsible for making sure the files of my podcast and your podcast, as well as the hate speech podcasts are distributed. What they can do is say they won't stand for it.

[00:04:18] They can clearly stay. No hate has no home here. Now, again, that's going to make lawyers all squeaky inside, but I'm not a lawyer. You might not be a lawyer either. And I know we can simply make statements. Hosting companies owned by regular people like you and me can make statements saying, no, we won't have it.

[00:04:47] Sure. We'll let the lawyers figure out the edges and there's always going to be gray area and we'll fight that kind of stuff. I get it that that happens. But that doesn't mean we should not try and do something that doesn't mean that hosting companies should not make a clear, very loud statement that says no,

[00:05:08] because right now, Well, I don't want to, I don't want to counsel it that, well, let me, let me change the way I say that without that, that's what I wanted to say without that kind of a statement. People who put out purposeful hateful content will just bounce from spot to spot to spot. Yeah. They're looking in terms of services and sure.

[00:05:29] That's inside of there. But if they see somebody who's doing hate-filled podcasting sees a hosting company that has a clear statement that says, no, we are not about that. I'm gonna try somewhere else. There's always somewhere else. Doesn't have to be the same place that you and I use. So what do we do about it?

[00:05:52] What are you and I working podcasters, who do not put out hate-filled commentary? What are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to act like the police and somehow go through and check and make sure and all this kind of stuff? I'm sure

[00:06:05] there

[00:06:05] Evo Terra: [00:06:05] will be some people that like to do that. That's not what I'm going to do.

[00:06:09] But when I encountered him, I would like to report it. I would like to let the hosting companies know that this is uncool. This exists on your platform. What are you going to do about it? Now? This is a very slippery slope because it raises the question. Well, what happens if the hosting company doesn't respond?

[00:06:27] What if the hosting company hides behind their legal shields, which they are likely to do, because that's what lawyers exist for to protect the interests of the company. If they choose not to take a stand, if they choose specifically not to remove content that is clearly within the boundaries of what any reasonable person would say is hate speech.

[00:06:48] They do. They refuse to remove it. Well, we can also show them the door can't we, we can move platforms. Look, it's real easy, really, really easy to move podcast. Hosting platforms. It has been commoditized. So therefore it's a snap, so we can just simply move. And I suppose if we wanted to, we could call out the hosting company, let them know specifically why we are moving because they allowed that to continue.

[00:07:22] I'm not so sure that the loss revenue of five or $10 a month, which is all it costs for these platforms. It's really going to make a big change. But I suppose if we do it on mass, then maybe so. Now how far down that slippery slope do we travel? What happens about the apps and directories? You might say the content exists, apps and directories listed, right?

[00:07:46] They're not actually approving content. Many of them are not. They're just posting what's up there. Should we take the same action to them? Look, I don't know. I get that. It's a slippery slope. I do not disagree with that. But I think we've, we crawl up the slope to the top of that slope and strongly encourage our hosting companies, who we are patronizing with our monies to remove the platform.

[00:08:12] If you wish I'm not afraid of that term, the content that is clearly hate speech related. I think it's something we can do. I don't think we should be terribly. Afraid of doing that, although we will see what happens if in fact that is the place it is, is the case. Now a few real things before I let go of you.

[00:08:34] One, obviously you go to buy me a coffee.com and do that. Buy me a coffee and also add, please. Well, tell one person about the podcast today. Yes, yes, yes. I know you told one person about podcast pontification yesterday. Tell them this. This is a different topic. Tell, tell somebody else about this particular episode, if you will.

[00:08:50] That's great. It helps the helps the show go. I am off tomorrow. There will be no show on Thursday. I'm picking your personal day for some activities I have to get done in the morning. So that means no episodes. There is no episode on Friday and then you've got a weekend. So I shall be back on Monday with yet another podcast.

[00:09:08] Pontifications cheers.

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